Social Partnership Council meeting, 5 December 2024: minutes

1. The First Minister welcomed attendees to the fifth meeting of the Social Partnership Council (SPC). She provided an overview of the agenda confirming she would leave the meeting after agenda item 2 and that the Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership would then chair the remainder of the SPC. 

2. The First Minister explained that the UK Government had been elected with a mandate to deliver the biggest upgrade in workers’ rights for a generation and that its landmark Employment Rights Bill was currently progressing through Parliament. She said the paper for this item summarised the context of the Bill, its key provisions and anticipated next steps regarding its Parliamentary progress.
    
3. The First Minister outlined some of the anticipated benefits of the Bill, including improved job security, better working conditions, enhanced productivity, the prevention of poor employment practices and greater workplace access for trade unions. She recognised members would have different perspectives on the Bill and would be engaging with the UK Government separately on its provisions but felt it appropriate to ensure the SPC was provided with an opportunity to discuss.  
    
4. Kathryn Robson (Further Education) welcomed the Bill, asking if the unfair dismissal provisions of the legislation would apply universally or whether some sectors and employers would be exempt.
    
5. Jessica Turner (UNISON) supported the Bill, confirming the trade unions would continue to engage on the legislation as it progressed through Parliament. Jessica highlighted the importance of the SPC monitoring the more nuanced aspects of the Bill impacting on devolved areas (e.g. social care or support staff in schools) to ensure they were developed without detriment to Welsh interests. She added that the Bill should be viewed as an opportunity to strengthen the social partnership model in Wales.  
    
6. Ben Cottam (Business) outlined small business concerns over the lack of detail, complexity and additional costs presented by the Bill at a time when companies were already struggling. Whilst supporting the legislation’s underlying intention to strengthen employment rights, Ben said the additional demands on businesses could inhibit the recruitment of new staff, particularly those furthest away from the job market. He explained that the FSB were working at a UK level to understand the implications of the Bill but highlighted the pace at which the legislation was progressing and the need to offer greater reassurances to small businesses.
    
7. Ian Price (Business) said the concerns raised by the FSB also applied to larger businesses. Ian outlined the pressures they were facing from increased National Insurance payments and the need for greater awareness over the cumulative impact of the Bill. He referenced positive engagement with the UK Government and offered general support for the legislation but highlighted concerns over some of its unintended consequences. In particular, he reiterated the impact of recruiting from harder to reach groups including those under the Young People not in Education, Employment or Training (NEET) programme.
    
8. Shavanah Taj (TUC Cymru) acknowledged the concerns of the FSB and CBI but stressed the significance of the Bill in creating high quality jobs that would ultimately support sustainable business growth. Shavanah said the Bill would allow the UK to match protections that were already in place in many parts of the world and promote Wales as an attractive place for businesses to invest. She added that there will be further conversations about certain topics such as protections for the self-employed but emphasised the game changing nature of the legislation for many people.
    
9. Pippa Britton (Voluntary Sector) also outlined concerns over the cost of the Bill for the voluntary sector in addition to increased National Insurance payments. Pippa said that some voluntary organisations were already having to use reserved funding and flagged the need to recognise the disproportionate impact the legislation could potentially have on areas such as social care.
    
10. Mike Walker (USDAW) supported the Bill’s aim to create a more ethical use of Non-Guaranteed Hours Arrangements (NGHAs), highlighting their excessive application and negative impact on peoples’ lives in the retail sector. Mike also referenced the provisions in the Bill designed to prevent the practice of fire and rehire, explaining that creating fairer employment practices would help to build a more sustainable economy.
     
11. Gareth Lloyd (UCU) referred to the uncertainty generated by the use of temporary employment contracts in Higher Education, especially amongst research staff. Gareth highlighted their impact on mental health as well as staff turnover whilst outlining the cost and well-being benefits of retaining staff.
     
12. Ian Price highlighted how the additional costs generated by the Bill could restrict businesses from recruiting apprentices and stressed the need to safeguard against this given their valuable contribution to the workplace.
     
13. The First Minister welcomed the general support for the Bill, explaining Welsh Government would feed members’ views into the UK Government’s on-going consultation exercise. She agreed that the legislation needed to be clear on who the unfair dismissal provisions applied to and raised the importance of ensuring the devolved aspects of the Bill were properly considered to avoid a two-tier system developing where England enjoyed greater employment rights. The First Minister said that a Legislative Consent Motion might be necessary to enact the devolved areas of the Bill and explained some of the difficulties of achieving this given the current political balance of the Senedd.
     
14. The First Minister acknowledged the cumulative impacts facing businesses and the voluntary sector but explained that the money generated from National Insurance increases would significantly improve public services for everyone. She highlighted the importance of protecting NEETs, explaining that investing in young people at an early age would prevent later problems associated with a culture of long-term unemployment.
     
15. The First Minister accepted the flexibility that could sometimes be offered by NGHAs but stressed the need to use them ethically. She added that companies would gain by retaining staff through increased commitment from employees and a reduction in the costs of training new workers. The First Minister accepted that the effect on the self-employed was key as it was a growth area and asked officials to provide her with a briefing on this issue. She then invited the Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership to offer any views.
     
16. The Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership explained that discussions were on-going with the UK Government on the Fair Pay Agreement and social care; he said Health officials would be engaging with the trade unions on the latter. The Minister confirmed the single operating model for NEETs would be considered in the new-year and that members’ views would be sought on this. More broadly, the Minister explained there would be further opportunities for the SPC to consider the different parts of the Bill as it progressed through Parliament and that regular updates would be provided to the SPC.
     
17. The First Minister thanked members for their contributions and handed over chairing the remainder of the meeting to the Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership.

Action: Welsh Government officials to provide the First Minister with a briefing note on the Employment Rights Bill and the self-employed.

Action: SPC Secretariat to ensure regular updates are provided to the SPC on the progress of the Employment Rights Bill.   

18. The Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership explained that this item would consider the public bodies’ reports on compliance with the Social Partnership Duty, specifically any additional information members thought would be useful to be included in the summary prepared by the SPC Secretariat. The Minister said there were no obligations on public bodies to include anything beyond the requirements of the Act and so it was not guaranteed that additional information would be provided. However, he emphasised the wasted opportunity of not including useful additional information and invited views from members.
     
19. Shavanah Taj said it would be helpful to have a template that public bodies could use that set out the type of information required by the SPC. Shavanah explained that this would simplify analysis and help identify any trends or key issues. As examples, she suggested asking how frequently an employer had met with trade unions as part of their social partnership duty, whether training had been provided and any examples of where activity was progressing well.
     
20. Kathryn Robson asked whether there would be scope to disseminate the good practice identified in the reports.  
     
21. Janis Richards (Business) asked whether the proposed approach could be replicated for the private sector.
     
22. The Minister said that based on members’ advice, the Secretariat would draw together a summary for the SPC to agree outside of the meeting capturing the additional information they would like included in the summary of the reports. He said that once this had been agreed for public bodies this could then be shared across other sectors.  

Action: The SPC Secretariat to provide a summary for members to agree, capturing the additional information they suggested would be useful to be included in the summary of the public bodies’ reports on compliance with the Social Partnership Duty. 

23. The Minister thanked Ruth Brady and other members of the Workforce Partnership Council’s (WPC) Artificial Intelligence (AI) Working Group for their reports. He explained that they were a valuable contribution to understanding the threats and opportunities posed to the public sector by AI. The Minister said interest in AI was increasing and that any activity by the SPC would need to avoid duplicating existing work in an already busy landscape.
     
24. Ruth Brady (GMB) thanked members of the Working group for their commitment to delivering the reports at pace so they could be considered at this meeting.
     
25. The Minister invited Glyn Jones, the Welsh Government’s Chief Digital Officer to present the reports to the SPC.
     
26. Glyn Jones provided an overview of the WPC’s AI Working Group and its composition. Glyn explained that the Group had received expert guidance from the Centre for Digital Public Services (CDPS) and Dr Phillipa Collins from Bristol University. He highlighted that the Group maintained close communications with other forums such as the Cross-Public Sector AI Steering Group led by the CDPS and the Commission for AI in Health and Care.
     
27. Glyn explained that the Group had developed three related products. These were: the report on the ‘Assessment of the Public Sector Workforce Implications of AI’ which outlined the risks and benefits of AI in the workplace, the ‘Benchmarking Report on the Awareness and Understanding of AI in the Welsh Public Sector’, which presented insights into the understanding and perception of AI amongst the public sector workforce and the final product was ‘Managing Technology that Manages People – Social Partnership Approach’, which provided overarching guidance on the implementation and use of AI in the workplace.
     
28. Glyn said the publication of these products would establish a clear framework for the safe implementation of AI in the workplace. He explained that following the agreement by the WPC on 18 November, the Group had committed to continue meeting to ensure the reports were impactful. He advised the Group were currently holding discussions regarding a draft communication plan to enhance the reports visibility amongst HR and digital leaders and strengthen connections with other forums.
     
29. Ruth Brady recommended the SPC consider the risks and opportunities associated with AI skills and capability in the workplace. Ruth also suggested the SPC could develop advice for Ministers to assist them in adopting a policy position on the use of AI.
     
30. Councillor Anthony Hunt (Local Government) supported the WPC’s work, emphasising the importance of examining both the risks and opportunities associated with AI. Councillor Hunt said he would arrange for the Joint Council for Wales to discuss the reports to understand their implications for Local Government.
     
31. Ben Cottam asked if the WPC’s work was being submitted to the inquiry by the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee. Ben highlighted the implications of AI for the wider economy as well as workers across both public and private sectors.
     
32. The Minister confirmed the WPC’s reports had been submitted to the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee.
     
33. Jessica Turner supported Ruth Brady’s recommendation and suggested the SPC also issue a statement endorsing the WPC’s reports to enhance their profile. Jess explained some of the challenges facing workers who fell between both public and private sectors such as those in social care. She warned about ensuring they were not forgotten and advised that the Social Care Fair Work Forum were also interested in the reports. Jess flagged the opportunity for the SPC to lead a direction of travel in mainstreaming an approach to AI across other forums and the need to ensure this subject remained a key focus for the Council.
     
34. Kathryn Robson said her sector was well positioned to promote the reports and agreed with Jess Turner’s recommendation that the SPC issue a statement of endorsement. Kathryn suggested the statement make a commitment to mitigating the risks of job displacement whilst promoting new opportunities for job creation through the use of AI.
     
35. Wendy Larner (Higher Education) supported Kathryn Robson’s views and added that the Higher Education sector was also ready to promote the reports. Wendy flagged the economic opportunities emerging from AI and said that society was at the beginning of understanding this evolving technology.
     
36. Ruth Brady confirmed easy read versions of the reports were being produced so that they could be understood across the workforce.
     
37. The Minister noted the broad support that had been offered by the SPC to develop work on AI with a focus on risks and opportunities as well as skills and capability. He explained that the WPC was producing a communications plan to promote their reports which would complement the easy read versions being developed; officials would provide these to members once completed. He committed to providing a supportive Written Statement on the WPC’s AI work and asked members if they were content for their views to be fed into this. This was accepted by the SPC.
     
38. The Minister suggested another option for progressing work on AI could be to establish an SPC Sub-group and suggested the Director of the Inter-Parliamentary Forum on Emerging Technologies could share expertise on AI at a future meeting of the SPC.
     
39. Jessica Turner stressed the importance of ensuring AI remained on the agenda for each meeting of the SPC given its importance and warned against delays occurring if a sub-group had to go through a lengthy clearance process to submit its work to the Council.
     
40. Shavannah Taj supported the comments made by Jess Turner and the need to ensure important issues relating to AI (such as job creation and workforce equity) remained a prominent part of SPC meetings. Shavannah emphasised the importance of ensuring AI was handled flexibly to avoid delays, suggesting work could be progressed outside of meetings to avoid this.
     
41. The Minister supported the view that AI should be a key part of SPC agendas and added that any sub-group would need to have a clear focus. He confirmed the Secretariat would discuss with Glyn Thomas and Ruth Brady and offer some proposed next steps for the SPC to consider.  

Action: The WPC’s AI Working Group to provide the easy read versions of their reports to the SPC once completed. 

Action: The SPC Secretariat to develop options (in consultation with the WPC’s AI Working Group) for how the SPC might progress work on AI. 

42. The Minister congratulated Ben Cottam and Peter Hughes on their appointments as joint chairs of the Working Group on Fair Work in Business Grants. He explained to the SPC that officials had been in dialogue with them about the Group’s administration, scope and membership. Once these had been agreed, the Secretariat would circulate a request for nominations from SPC members ahead of a first meeting, probably early in the New Year to agree terms of reference and agendas for the first few meetings. He invited views from Peter Hughes and Ben Cottam.
     
43. Peter Hughes (Unite) explained that officials were in the process of arranging a meeting with him to discuss establishing the Working Group. Peter stressed the importance of agreeing terms of reference and membership early in the new year so that the meetings could then progress; and he and Ben would work collaboratively to achieve this.
     
44. Ben Cottam thanked officials for the advice they had provided so far in establishing the Working Group and stressed his keenness to start progressing work in the new year.
     
45. The Minister said he looked forward to the terms of reference and membership of the Working Group being agreed and a written progress update being provided to the SPC in the new year.

Action: A written update on the Working Group on Fair Work in Business Grants to be provided following its first meeting to SPC members.  

46. The Minister said there were six on-going actions arising from previous meetings of the SPC and outlined these. He specifically drew members’ attention to the action from the last meeting to explore an SPC Sub-group to consider the language around productivity and efficiency. He asked whether it was something members still wanted to pursue.  
     
47. Shavanah Taj felt the situation had progressed since this action had been captured and so was no longer required. Other members agreed with this.

48. The Minister confirmed that at the last meeting of the SPC he had proposed that at least two meetings of the Council for 2025 should be in-person and that one of these should be held outside of Cardiff. He explained that the Secretariat had been exploring the viability of other locations and that it was possible to hold the next meeting, scheduled for the 12 March, in the Welsh Government offices in either Swansea, Carmarthen or Merthyr. The Minister added that it was also possible to hold the meeting in Cardiff or potentially a non-Welsh Government building (facilities allowing) but reiterated the importance of holding some meetings outside of the capital. He invited views.
     
49. Peter Hughes asked why the locations proposed were all in Southern Wales.
     
50. The Minister acknowledged this and suggested the Secretariat could explore using the Unite office in Wrexham for one of the SPC’s meetings.
     
51. Janis Richards asked what information there was on the geographical location of SPC members.
     
52. The Minister confirmed the overall balance was in Southern Wales.
     
53. Jessica Turner suggested using the Welsh Government office in Merthyr. Ruth Brady, Gareth Lloyd and Shavanah Taj supported this proposal.
     
54. Councillor Anthony Hunt also offered facilities in Pontypool.
     
55. The Minister thanked everyone for their advice and confirmed the SPC Secretariat would contact them regarding arrangements for the next meeting on the 12 March.

Action: The SPC Secretariat to progress arrangements for the Council meeting on 12 March as in-person at the Welsh Government’s Merthyr office.

Action: The SPC Secretariat to explore options for holding the meeting on 8 October in North Wales. 

Welsh Government

Eluned Morgan MS, First Minister (Chair)
Jack Sargeant MS, Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership (Co-Chair)
Jo Salway, Welsh Government
Glyn Jones, Chief Digital Officer

Worker Representatives 

Neil Butler, National Association of Schoolmasters Union of Women Teachers
Gareth Lloyd, University and College Union
Ruth Brady, GMB
Shavanah Taj, TUC Cymru  
Jess Turner, UNISON
Mike Walker, Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers 
Peter Hughes, Unite the Union in Wales

Employer Representatives 

Pippa Britton, Third Sector
Councillor Anthony Hunt, Welsh Local Government Association
Ian Price, Confederation of British Industry Wales
Nicola Prygodzicz, NHS Chief Executives 
Kathryn Robson, Adult Learning Wales
Ben Cottam, Federation of Small Businesses
Prof. Wendy Larner, Cardiff University
Janis Richards, Make UK Ltd
Dame Elan Closs-Stephens, Public Leaders Forum

Observers

Karen Higgins, WLGA
Nisreen Mansour, TUC Cymru
Dr Phillipa Collins, Bristol University

Apologies

Helen Whyley, Royal College of Nursing in Wales